Real Life Planning Podcast Episode 50: The Accidental Landlord with Daniel Kopp, MA, MS, CFP®, MQFP®,

In Episode 50 of the Real Life Planning Podcast, Cynthia Meyer, CFA®, CFP®, ChFC®, talks with Daniel Kopp, MA, MS, CFP®, MQFP®, founder of Wise Stewardship Financial Planning, about the challenges of being an accidental landlord. As a military veteran and financial planner, Daniel shares why so many service members unintentionally become landlords, the financial and emotional pitfalls they face, and how to make smarter real estate decisions. Whether you're in the military or just navigating rental property ownership, this episode will help you assess whether holding onto a property is the right move.

"Most accidental landlords never intended to be in the rental property business, but now they have to figure out how to manage it profitably—or exit wisely." – Daniel Kopp

This week on Real Life Planning Podcast:

Takeaway Quotes:

"Just because you can turn your home into a rental doesn’t mean you should—do the math first." – Daniel Kopp

"A real estate investment should be treated like a business, not an emotional decision." – Cynthia Meyer

"If you don’t plan for property repairs, unexpected expenses will find a way to surprise you." – Daniel Kopp

Connect with Daniel Kopp, CFP®:

• Website: Wise Stewardship Financial Planning
• Podcast: Military to Financial Planner
• LinkedIn: Daniel Kopp, CFP®

Connect with Real Life Planning:

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• Email: podcast@reallifeplanning.com  

About the Real Life Planning Podcast

Hosts Cynthia Meyer and Vekevia Tillman-Jones explore practical steps for real estate investors to build financial freedom and make working for someone else optional.

Episode 50 Transcript

[00:00:06] Cynthia Meyer: Were you an accidental landlord? Welcome to the Real Life Planning Podcast. I'm Cynthia Meyer, real estate financial planner and the founding of Real Life Planning and today I'm here with Daniel Kopp of Wise Stewardship Financial Planning. He's totally amazing.

Hopefully he'll be sharing many ideas about what to do if you're accidental landlord and to talk a little bit about some of the mindset issues that come along with that and the decisions that we need to make. Welcome Daniel. Great to see you this morning.

[00:00:40] Daniel Kopp: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about some of my favorite subjects, which is money and mindset and meaning and how it relates.

[00:00:46] Cynthia Meyer: Tell us what's important to know about you.

[00:00:49] Daniel Kopp: Well, I'm a Air Force veteran, so I was originally not on this financial planner career track. I was an officer in the Air Force for a long time, about nine years. And I thought that's what to do for majority of my professional life. Some life events intervened in the short version of that is my late wife Sarah became pretty ill.

I was her primary caregiver and ultimately, she went into hospice and then died in 2017. So that kind of really altered my life course. I had to get out of the military as a part of that process of having to do caregiving. And I'm like, well, what am I going to do now? And how can I take things that I already enjoy? I was always a personal finance nerd and I love that kind of stuff. So I'd stumbled my way into the certified financial planner program and found like the world of fee-only planning and that really just seemed to be like the next chapter. So as a part of my grief journey, I took some time off with a sabbatical, traveled around the country in an RV for a little while, and then ultimately decided to launch my own planning firm, and I specialize in working with active duty military. I have obviously deep connections and expertise in that, as well as young widows, typically in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, kids in the picture. Stepping of that role of household CFO. Sometimes those expertise is blend in working with gold star widows. So I have many of those as clients, as well. So I run a shop that works with them.

Like you, I'm a part of XY Planning Network, and I'm grateful for this kind of impact because I get to see what it looks like when people align their money with their values and how that just bleeds into so many other areas of their lives and can make such a powerful impact that way.

[00:02:25] Cynthia Meyer: One of the reasons that I invited you to be on the video podcast today, as I sat in on a continuing education class that you did at a conference a little while ago. I was so impressed with how you have used your life and your life experiences in conjunction with your values to try and heal a small part of the world; like you're using your life to pay it forward and I was really impressed by that. I was interested in how you came up with the idea of Wise Stewardship Financial Planning as the name of your firm.

[00:03:01] Daniel Kopp: Yeah, it's a nod to things that are important to me. There's a little bit of reference to those who probably have like study things like in the book of Proverbs from the Bible. So there's a biblical theme there that's been important to me in my life going back many years. And then the wise piece is, right? we are entrusted with these resources. Money as a tool can be used for good or bad and especially when we think about like stewarding or using it well for other people, goes back to the idea of an ancient steward probably the most prominent example I knew in the Bible is like Joseph who is given charge of someone else's house and property. Very common in the ancient world- that household manager who didn't own any of it, but was responsible for the day to day management of it on behalf of- so there's that fiduciary relationship almost implied there, even to how they were taking care of it for someone else. So that was meaningful to me and I wanted to put that into it. So, it's a little nod to some personal convictions and values and what I was hoping to do as a client relationship, when I get to be the financial planner, come on and help these people steward it in their own lives, but also in that seeing it as my role, as well.

[00:04:08] Cynthia Meyer: Yeah. Such an evocative word. As someone who works with folks in the military, there are many accidental landlords. Can you break that down for us and talk a little bit about what often faces people in active duty and how that integrates with real estate decisions?

[00:04:28] Daniel Kopp: Yeah. So I did not coin the term. I don't know who it's originally from, but I see it talked around a lot in our military space. And so the idea is people in the active duty are going to move around or PCS, permanent change of station, pretty regularly every couple of years for the most part. You might be on the East coast, then moving to the West coast and then somewhere else like that. When you show up in a new location, you're looking to make decisions about where you're going to live, you're going to live on base, you're going to live on a rental, or you're going to buy. And for many people, they take advantage of the real estate conditions or whatever the case may be and buy a property. Nine times out of 10, they buy this intending to live in it, not really sure- not super being intentional about what that would look like post leaving that assignment going to someplace else.

It's not a surprise. Orders show up; time to leave. So many people then go, okay, well, let's go to sell it. Maybe they can't because of whatever reason- off market, bad location, interest rates, you could run the gamut there, or more often, they have had conversations with what we call the barracks lawyer. So these are the people in their lives on base in their workplace, who often profess to know more than they actually do and maybe they got lucky or maybe they're good, but maybe they're not just like spouting the most personalized advice, but like, well, I did it, so everybody else could do it, too. And these people get the, Oh, I could be a landlord, too and they decided to turn their house into a property. 

So now they're long distance typically, cause now they're moving far away. So they're not going to have eyes on it and most of the time they didn't run the numbers when they bought the property or the primary home, what it would look like for a rental. So I encounter these all the time and like people may be breaking even; many times, even losing money on a monthly cashflow basis after all the costs are paid for- without even considering CapEx, and things like that. So, it's so emotional when I talk to these people because like hopes and fears and dreams and they lived in that house and saw this kind of stuff. It generally refers to the lack of like intentionality, like we're buying this property for a rental from the beginning. Occasionally, I see that, but most often not. 

[00:06:26] Cynthia Meyer: As a business, right? As a business venture, which it should be profitable, cash flow positive. 

[00:06:31] Daniel Kopp: Yes. And so you get these people who, on paper, net worth wise may look like they have a significant amount, particularly with the real estate run up that we've had in this country in the last many years or whatever case may be.

So you get this situation where they feel cash poor. In many cases they are, because now you do this at two, three, four, five, six assignments, and suddenly you've got multiple properties all over the place, and then there's got the headache of running it and the calls from tenants and just all the challenges that come with that. Most of the time I encounter people who are just very unhappy with how things are going, but they're not exactly sure how to extricate themselves from the situation. So that's in a nutshell with what that situation often looks like with accidental landlords. 

[00:07:13] Cynthia Meyer: Yes. And then that person that may have been doing this or that couple that's been doing this as a strategy, maybe over 15 or 20 years, then they've got a rental property business that is maybe in five or six or seven states. So that's- all those property managers and yeah, state laws and different real estate markets, different teams, generally single family homes. Not always, but generally single family homes which just in terms of, there's a limit on the rent that you can get for a single family home. After a certain point, the tenant would just buy their own single family home. So, it doesn't have, like, there's a cap on how much rent can go up with appreciated prices. And so that's a lot to keep track of from another state or another country. 

[00:08:02] Daniel Kopp: Yeah, exactly. And now (How does access to VA loans help build rentals?) one of the reasons why military families are able to do this pretty readily is the availability of the VA loan and, the not having to put any money down for many of these properties. So even though they may have appreciated relative to what they bought it, when you go in with no equity with a down payment or even negative equity, if you're financing the VA funding fee, which many of them do, you get situations that just become quite challenging.

Now a way around this is of course the house hack, which I'm sure your listeners are probably familiar with. You buy a duplex with or triplex or something like that with a VA loan. You live in one unit because again, one of the requirements to use the VA loan is intent to reside. 

[00:08:42] Cynthia Meyer: That's correct. Yeah. 

[00:08:43] Daniel Kopp: And that's the way around it. But most often people I have seen in the accidental landlord category don't see that or don't do that. 

[00:08:51] Cynthia Meyer: Well, house hacking is I always say if I could go back until my 25 year old Cynthia something, it would be to house hack. So now tell me, Daniel, my understanding is that you can only have one, 100 percent down VA loan, maybe 100 percent VA loan at a time.

Is that correct?

[00:09:11] Daniel Kopp: So it changes how the funding fee percentage is calculated. So the first time use versus subsequent use is higher. And it really comes down to the regional markets. This is where it gets a little beyond the scope of my expertise as far as like understanding what used to be and many people still have misunderstandings about the VA loan limit and the maximum amount of loans that you're able to have based on the regional market and things like that.

No, I've seen clients have multiple properties in a row purchased with 0 percent down. Now, you can get the VA funding fee down by putting at least a five or a 10 percent down payment and...

[00:09:46] Cynthia Meyer: It's still a very low down payment. 

[00:09:47] Daniel Kopp: Yes, extremely and extremely beneficial. So especially for my clients that I'm working with, where they're not planning to use this as a rental property versus a subsequent home, getting that lower funding fee with that extra five or 10 percent payment can be quite beneficial.

Now, the beauty of course, is once you retire from or separate from the military, you're at least a zero percent VA connected service disability rating. Now that VA funding fee is waived going forward. So this becomes even more beneficial as far as like purchasing it for your primary residence later on. 

[00:10:17] Cynthia Meyer: What do you suggest to somebody in the service who is facing this first decision about keeping or selling their first primary residence or turning it into a rental, right? Like how would you coach them?

[00:10:29] Daniel Kopp: So I, I have this conversation a lot, which is first, let's look at the cold, hard math. Let's not have any illusions about what you think could happen or what your barracks lawyer buddy has said. So actually running the numbers, like what are properties that are the comps here getting, right? I like using tools like the BiggerPockets website and calculators and things like that.

[00:10:50] Cynthia Meyer: Rentometer is another good one. 

[00:10:51] Daniel Kopp: Exactly. What are properties on the market right now in your area same comps, renting for today? Okay, and now let's go and actually run some real numbers on not just paying your mortgage and interest because that's what everybody starts with, but they forget about property management and then all the CapEx expenditures that you're going to need to set aside and wear and tear and rental turnover in occupied places.

So running the math on all those numbers, and only if then that actually starts to make sense, do we consider that. Again, I'd say nine times out of ten, it doesn't because most of these properties that they've bought are places that they want to live in, which are nice neighborhoods, good houses, maybe even bidding wars, especially if it's on a summer PCS cycle, where there's lots of people moving in and out of these areas.

And so, very rarely does it make sense, given some of the metrics out there, whether you're looking at things like the 1 percent rule. But on the off chance that it does, so math checks out. Now you have to consider the other side, which is the emotional considerations like playing some what ifs in your head, like the whole idea of regret minimization.

How would you feel at 2am if you get a call about problem XYZ in your place? Okay, the other way...

[00:12:01] Cynthia Meyer: Which as a real estate investor, I can tell you that does happen. 

[00:12:04] Daniel Kopp: Yes, I also call, the other step I call it is my landlord inoculation program. So just like you want to vaccinate against some of these diseases, there's a couple of Facebook groups out there, one of them is called Military Landlords and I make them join this group on Facebook and you have to watch the traffic in there for at least 30 days and just see horror story after a horror story, after a horror story of everything that could go wrong. Not saying that it would with your property, but all the things that could go wrong. And if after math checks out, you feel emotionally, like mentally prepared, as best you can, not knowing what it looks like and you hear all of the bad things that can happen, if at the end of that you still think you're okay, all right, we're going to press ahead. We're going to try it. 

[00:12:45] Cynthia Meyer: I just want to dig into that for a second there, because  I have discovered over all these years of working with real estate investors in our practice, that there's a small slice of people that no matter how much they have in cash reserves, and if they're well prepared from a business standpoint to be rental property owner, that they take it personally when something breaks and they have to put out a grand for the air conditioner or something to fix the sewer pipe or the roof or, remediates lead in an old house or something like that.

Those individual decisions about whether to spend money or not, especially for somebody who is intensely frugal can some- for some people can be really painful and it doesn't matter how profitable it is, just that the onslaught of financial decisions can be very stressful for them. 

[00:13:38] Daniel Kopp: Yeah. There's something that's so tied up in money and emotion. We referenced that earlier, even, and I don't know why, but I see this over and over again. We treat humans by we, we humans treat decisions about financial assets like real estate differently than even other assets. Now, of course, we still have things like confirmation bias and anchoring and these other behavioral science, behavioral finance applications that have been studied out and things that we're prone to.

But yes, for some reason, real estate brings out a whole other level of things where it's not as easy to be objective. 

[00:14:14] Cynthia Meyer: Talk a little bit about this, because I know, in the financial therapy work that you do and in your work in behavioral finance, how do you work with clients on those mindset issues?

[00:14:25] Daniel Kopp: So one of the favorite questions I love to ask clients early on in our working relationship is tell me about your earliest memory of money and just see where that goes and pull on that thread a little bit, particularly when working with couples, right? So very rarely, in fact, it never in my practice, but very rarely in general, even academic research, do couples show up in a marriage or a relationship having the same money story. And by that, like, what was your family of origin like growing up? How was money treated? Was it a source of stress and anxiety? Did it cause conflict between your parents or your family members? Did you experience financial deprivation or poverty? Like how did these things embed most of the lessons that we learned about money are not even necessarily taught.

Okay. There's no one ever sat you down for the most part probably and said, here's the rules about money. Instead, as a child, you assimilated them, the lessons were caught, you picked them up, it was the water that you swam in the air that you breathed. Some researchers even suggesting that, most of our what we call money script, our fundamental underlying beliefs, regardless whether they're right or not, are entrenched in our psyche, even by ages five, six, seven, long before we might even actually have a true understanding of what money is other than what we see it all around us. So you grew up in different environments. You have very different early memories of money. We have different exposures to it, especially when you start talking about things like, Hey, did your parents give you a car or did you have to earn it? What did you get a first job? If so, what was that like? If you went to college, how did that play? Did you have to take on significant student debt? Did your parents provide it, right? All these things come up and now you're married in a relationship. Somebody who has a very different approach. And maybe you've talked about it and maybe you've not, and now you start adding in additional stressors like real estate and the lack of objectivity. That's so easy for us to get into. It's only natural for conflict, sometimes in couples and relationships to arise and real estate can be an easy flash point where that shows up, even though it's probably simmering below the surface, maybe even in other areas.

[00:16:32] Cynthia Meyer: There are other situations where somebody might become an accidental landlord. I think inherited property is a good example of that. You may inherit a rental property or you may inherit property that you decide to turn into rental. Sometimes that means you're in business with your siblings or cousins or something like that. How would you approach something like that situation?

[00:16:51] Daniel Kopp: Very similar, although with the exception that if you're gonna have business partners, whether that's other family members or things like that, recognizing that it can get even stickier. For some reason, death and loss and sorrow and grief can intermingle in scenarios like that, especially if you inherited and there's conflicting feelings or emotions around the loss of the person. That grief can show up in how you think about the property, as well. So again, I would start, and this is where a reasonable, objective third party, whether that's, as formal as like a mediator or an attorney, or just someone who could be a trusted neutral person. Someone who could reasonably listen to both sides come in and help you think about the problem.

Most of the challenges that I see in those scenarios, though, would come down to communication more than actually agreeing about this number or that number, right? Because person X might want to be bought out. They might not have the funds on the other side to be able to do that. So, I think that really ties into like ensuring that your estate plan for those of you who are passing on those assets is set up effectively so that you can head off some of those problems. But run the numbers, have a good communication strategy, bring in a third party that can help think through that, talk through it if you can't do it on your own. 

[00:18:04] Cynthia Meyer: So switching to how you started your business, Daniel, what would you say is the most important thing that you learned about yourself by starting your practice?

[00:18:14] Daniel Kopp: Well, I did not ever think that I was an entrepreneur or entrepreneurial. My dad worked...

[00:18:19] Cynthia Meyer: You were the accidental entrepreneur?

[00:18:20] Daniel Kopp: Yes, I suppose so. My dad worked for the state government for decades and decades. Same job. Same people. And so that was the environment I was modeling after. Went to college during the great financial crisis and so I was very relieved that I had not just an ROTC scholarship, but a guaranteed job upon graduation. And so I love the military. I thought that was something I was always going to do. In some ways, government, military, all that kind of stuff is like the epitome of secure, not the entrepreneurial side. So I did not realize that this was something that I would be interested much less that I would enjoy it and be as good as it. But it's taken a lot of mindset growth and personal coaching and reading resources and talking to other people on this side of it.

But back to that whole couple thing, right? My wife is very different. So I'm now remarried. And my wife, Anna and I have very different approaches. We like to joke that I'm the director of speeding things up and she's the director of slowing things down, especially on the entrepreneurial side. Like right now we're even considering another business venture to start up in parallel with my planning firm.

As I think about growing and hiring and scaling and all these kinds of things, and so that relates to this idea that in a marriage communication is going to be the most important thing; making joint decisions that both of you can sleep well with versus one person driving the train and saying, Nope, this is what we're doing, regardless of how the other person's feels.

[00:19:45] Cynthia Meyer: I always say that, marriage is, of course, a spiritual, a romantic and a parenting partnership, but it's also an economic partnership and when both spouses are rowing in the same direction, that can be really powerful. 

[00:19:59] Daniel Kopp: Yes, indeed.

[00:20:01] Cynthia Meyer: Did you have a mentor?

[00:20:02] Daniel Kopp: I've had several on the financial planning side of things, but honestly, I've learned as much from peers in the same stage. So I'm part of at least four mastermind groups. So some of them are other planners who launched firms right around the same time as I did. So we've been at the same phase of life and business and there it's easy in the beginning to all complain about the same things because you feel it. You're in that similar stage of the camaraderie. And then I'm in a couple of other groups. Some of them meet bi weekly, some of them meet monthly, and some of those are oriented around the specific niche, the type of work that we do. So it's expertise related and others are just like minded, but maybe trying to build different things and gaining inspiration and examples.

And then of course, then the idea of like, I don't have to learn every lesson the hard way on my own, but I can glean from these expertise. So there's certainly parallels there in any kind of business or life. The whole idea of together, but not alone when you're doing this. So these people don't have any equity in my business, nor do I in theirs, but yet when we come together, it's truly a cooperative venture. We are selflessly sharing anything and everything. At the same time, there's a sacred like trust in that, what we share in those groups stays in those groups. And I know that it's a place where I can come and be transparent, be real, but also get powerful advice and coaching and support and encouragement, accountability, as well

[00:21:26] Cynthia Meyer: So what's next for your business? Everything worked out exactly the way that you wanted it to over the next, say 15 or 20 years, what does that look like?

[00:21:34] Daniel Kopp: Yeah. So this is my sixth year of running my planning firm and I feel like in the last year or two, the business has grown up, right? I feel extremely competent technical proficiency wise now across basically every area of the clients that I serve and then now it's really spending a lot of time thinking about what comes next for the business. So the hiring and scaling piece. So last year I brought on an amazing director of operations. I've had a variety of other back office support teams, as well. And so looking at, okay probably going to bring on an intern here in May, June, July, and then, all right, what happens next? Do I bring on an associate? I'm considering a residency type program. As you said Cynthia, one of the challenges on this side of the profession, it's what my colleague, Daniel Yerger, calls the pine tree problem, which is very narrow initial entry point specifically into the RIA fee-only financial planning space, like to do real planning here versus some of the other things that are more sales focused, right? Where they'll take anybody, everybody, but the washout rate is 80 to 90%, right? So I'm thinking about like bringing somebody into the two year, 4,000 hour apprenticeship pathway on the CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ program, and then not necessarily give them a path to lead planner with all the attendant salary considerations and business growth that it may be, I'm not ready or interested in taking on.

I've always planned to keep this as more of a small boutique kind of practice. I don't want to be CEO of a hundred person firm. I love planning work, the one on one interaction with the client. So I want to make sure I don't get too far away from that, but help train other people along the way. So that's what I'm considering right now and also some other business ventures outside of that, that tickle the marketing, the sales, the other sides of the business that I love so much, maybe with some other business partners, as well.

[00:23:25] Cynthia Meyer: No, that's really exciting. I love the idea of a residency. It's something that many of us who are involved in a CE program that we have called the Real Estate Financial Coach Course, been thinking about that like how to mint more of us who can focus on financial planning for real estate investors is, which is a piece that's not a big part of the CFP® curriculum, as is the work that you do with people in the military or military veterans, not a big part of the  CFP® curriculum requires a level of specialized knowledge and that's really wonderful that you've again, you're paying it forward to the next generation.

[00:24:04] Daniel Kopp: Many people were so generous with their time and expertise when I was trying to break into this profession. Another way that I try to give back right now is the Military to Financial Planner podcast, where I host interviews and other people who have been active duty or military and or military spouses, and now working in the financial space, financial coaching, running their own firms, doing things like that. A great way, again, trying to have conversations at scale, much like you're doing here, because I get a chance to do these one on one, which is great and I love it, but when I can have a one on one conversation and then share that with hundreds or thousands of people, it's as a much broader way to share and advance what I hope is advancing the profession.

[00:24:42] Cynthia Meyer: What's the best piece of advice that you have ever received?

[00:24:46] Daniel Kopp: Some of the best advice I'll give relates to the business side, which is confidence and competence are not necessarily related to each other, but competence grows as confidence gets experienced, right? The whole idea of the 10,000 hours and doing lots of reps. At the same time, my confidence rose as my competence also rose. So in other words, I mentioned earlier, like the technical expertise, okay. When I know the answers and I can do the work with clients, especially with this niche focus, I get to see many of the same situations over and over again.

When I know I am the best planner in the United States for Gold Star Widows, that translates into an excellent level of professional confidence, not arrogance, not venturing outside of the realm of humility and support and recognizing that there's always more to learn. At the same time, that spills over into the work that you can do that I can do and have a tremendous impact.

So confidence and competence, they have an interesting relationship. One can support the other and the growth in one can certainly support the other.

[00:25:57] Cynthia Meyer: I think that's fantastic. And it's certainly somebody who's been a financial planner since the mid 1990s. It's amazing. The more certifications that you get, the more work that you do, the more you collaborate with other professionals, we've also been doing this for a long time, the more we realized that's there's a huge body of knowledge and it's impossible to specialize in everything. So that's why it's so helpful to have a very specific type of client that we help and know everything that there is helping those folks get the transformation that they need in their lives.

So are you curious about anything right now?

[00:26:32] Daniel Kopp: So back to the mindset piece. So again, growing where I'm at, I've been reading a lot more of some of the work of like Dan Sullivan and things like that. So, the gap and the gain. He's from Strategic Coach. The Gap In The Game, powerful. That's a good one. I'm always trying to achieve what's next, but sometimes taking the time to step back and reflect on how much growth has actually happened and also Who Not How. This one was particularly transformative because early on I had some limiting beliefs in my own mindset that only I could do this part of my business. And it was only when I stepped back again with some outside perspectives, some from that book, others from the coaching and masterminds, like no, I was the problem. I was the limiting factor. I am in many ways, the limiting factor in what hinders the growth. So one of the coaching programs that I'm in right now, it talks about this exercise above the line, below the line, right?

Michael Hyatt also references this in much of his leadership work, which is what is the work that fills you up? That doesn't feel like work that puts you in a state of flow? Whereas other things that Michael Hyatt calls distraction zone and drudgery zone, it's all getting at the same.

[00:27:37] Cynthia Meyer: Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Oh, such as that from Free to Focus, I think?

[00:27:40] Daniel Kopp: Yes. Yes. Freedom to Focus. Excellent book. Love that book. And then, so above the line of things that I love doing, and I am one of the best if not the best person to do those activities. So in my work, that's often typically the case. The technical expertise related to some of the niche focused things for Gold Star Widow Planning.

For instance, that's the meeting with clients. I love it. It's so much fun. It doesn't feel like work. I could do it all day. Even with the emotional challenges and considerations along with that's the business ownership piece, like vision, strategy cast that kind of stuff like team leadership, mentoring, coaching, teaching. I love all those things. That's all above the line for me. What's below the line though, I've been trying to get off my plate more and more delegation to someone who loves that kind of work, right? I don't really like some things related to the business operations or coming up with new checklists or procedures or refining that stuff. But I found people who get absolute joy out of doing those kinds of things, right? And as a business owner, when I am not the blocking point or the sticking point and giving it to someone who finds it at work, meaningful, enjoyable, making a great workplace culture, paying well, helping people find and discover their own strengths.

It's just transformative for me personally, what has happened when I have learned those lessons myself, got myself out of the way and shifted the mindset.

[00:29:06] Cynthia Meyer: Yeah, have you ever have you ever taken this quiz or read the book, I think it's called the 6 Types of Working Genius?

[00:29:15] Daniel Kopp: I have not. No, that sounds fascinating.

[00:29:16] Cynthia Meyer: Oh, so good. What's Patrick Lencioni, I think is his name? We can put in the show notes. There's a short quiz that people can take. It's good for the whole team to take it in organizations. Similar to the Myers Briggs, you get a type, but it's a much faster process and it talks about how people communicate and make decisions within organizational structures. And it's really, it's really fun. It's brilliant. It's good for the whole team to do it and then to compare across the organization. I recently read book was called, At Your Best. Was it productivity time management and productivity take on things very complimentary to the Michael Hyatt book that you represented and I just read that recently.

So I'd recommend it. I liked it a lot.

[00:30:03] Daniel Kopp: Fascinating. Yeah. My, my reading cue is always at least 20 deep. I find that again in entrepreneurship, right? If you...

[00:30:11] Cynthia Meyer: Aspirational book buying. I totally am with you. I'm with you there.

[00:30:15] Daniel Kopp: Always more to learn, but also right? Again, the growth mindset, which is recognizing there's work to be done. Amazing resources and ability to take from it and learn from it. Don't do everything the hard way by learning it yourself, right? That's what books are. The ability to take lessons learned from others and implement them on your own.

[00:30:36] Cynthia Meyer: It's genius. Well, so on that note Daniel, tell us, where can we find you online?

[00:30:42] Daniel Kopp: Well, I'm active on primarily on LinkedIn. I also have a small presence on Facebook and things like that, but the best place would be LinkedIn. I mentioned the podcast earlier, Military to Financial Planner. So welcome anybody who's interested in exploring whether you're a career changer into the financial planning profession or military background, military spouses, things like that.

And then obviously on my website, wisestewardshipfp.com.

[00:31:04] Cynthia Meyer: Wonderful. Well, thank you very much for joining us this morning. It's been a fabulous conversation and for everybody who's listening, if you'd like to get in touch with Daniel, we'll put all his links below. See you next time.  

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